Revitalising COMCIFS
James H
jamesrhester at gmail.com
Mon Aug 16 03:12:00 BST 2021
Dear All,
A COMCIFS meeting is certainly a good idea. I would prefer the week after
Commdat to give us time to have some preliminary discussions here about
topics raised. I will ask Brian to arrange a doodle poll.
Herbert - thanks for the reminder about other standards organisations - the
minimalist RFC approach does seem remarkably successful.
John - good to have some insight into how things work in the MM world. Any
particular suggestions on ways to improve COMCIFS operations based on the
clearly successful MM experiences would be welcomed, I think. As far as
bureaucracy goes I'd opt for "no more than necessary" rather than "none at
all". At the moment in the "none at all" situation, if you aren't prepared
to wade through COMCIFS discussions for the last decade (or more) it can be
difficult to have any idea as to how we do things. So it may be that the
final resting place of my proposals is that we prepare a few RFC style
documents that explain how we do the important things, together with an RFC
that describes how to make new RFCs. I would be keen to delegate the actual
dictionary construction process that you describe to separate groups that
can figure out for themselves the best way to work - if we provide them
with a suggested roadmap and offer them a place on Github to get started
with that would probably be enough.
Again, an important goal of this initiative is to increase the number of
people contributing in the CIF space. There is a serious bottleneck at the
moment as can be seen from the number of unresolved threads in coreDMG, the
page of unresolved issues on the Github respository, and various dictionary
initiatives languishing. Many of these do not require deep knowledge of
CIF. I'm not expecting a broad influx of people but even 5 new contributors
who are willing to take on one-off tasks would make an enormous difference.
all the best,
James.
On Sun, 15 Aug 2021 at 08:19, john.westbrook at rcsb.org <jdwestbrook at gmail.com>
wrote:
> I was just inquiring of James if there was an IUCr COMCIFS meeting
> scheduled. 10ET on the 25th would
> work for me.
> John
> On 8/14/21 5:47 PM, Herbert J. Bernstein wrote:
> > Shouldn't we have a zoom meeting just after the IUCr meeting to discuss
> this and any other open
> > COMCIFS issues? I believe that the CommDat meeting is scheduled for 8a> NY time on Wedneday,
> > 25 August, 1 pm London Time, 2 pm Prague time, 10 pm Sydney time.
> Might it be sensible for us to
> > have a COMCIFS meeting a little later the same day, say 10 am NY time, > pm London Time, 4 pm
> > Prague time, midnight Sydney time?
> >
> > In general, I think the most important step we could make in
> revitalizing COMCIFS would be to meet
> > regularly, certainly at least once a year.
> >
> > For the moment the agenda could be:
> > revitalizing COMCIFS
> > report of current activities
> > ITVG
> > old business
> > new business
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Aug 14, 2021 at 5:18 PM john.westbrook at rcsb.org <mailto:
> john.westbrook at rcsb.org> <jdwestbrook at gmail.com
> > <mailto:jdwestbrook at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I agree with Herbert’s friend’s opinion that adding process and
> bureaucracy will have a negative impact on productivity. In my
> > view,
> > fancy standards processes are wonderful for managing large groups o> well-supported and highly motivated individuals. In contrast,
> > I believe that such approaches do little but impede the efforts of
> smaller groups of volunteers with only limited free cycles to
> > bring to a project.
> >
> > While the dynamics of MM dictionary development may not be
> representative of the overall COMCIFS development effort, we have had
> > success working with standing committees of developers and key
> stakeholders in particular domain areas. wwPDB team members try to
> > facilitate discussion and generally reduce the friction of moving
> innovation in science, technology, methodology into dictionary
> > semantics that works and plays well with the rest of the MM data
> ecosystem. This work is conducted in regular virtual meetings and
> > with the help of common software development collaboration channels
> available on GitHub. Discussions typically center around
> > evaluating if prototype dictionary extensions and the viability of
> implementing these within the most widely used software tools
> > and
> > packages. Our focus is always on trying to achieve a standard data
> representation coupled with a consensus implementation that can
> > move new data into the repository.
> >
> > In our experience, the success of any dictionary development effort
> centrally depends on getting the key stakeholders together in
> > regular face-to-face or now virtual meetings. As I am sure, you
> appreciate, nailing down semantics in almost any domain is always
> > more complicated than initially anticipated, and discussions often
> evolve to an unanticipated outcome. Such discussions are
> > tedious, and in my view, inefficiently conducted in protracted
> e-mail exchanges. Getting a virtual consensus on a trial set of
> > semantics in periodic zoom meetings, followed by some intervening
> time to develop and test prototype implementations, is the
> > process
> > that we currently find successful in the MM space.
> >
> > Best -
> >
> > John
> >
> > On 8/13/21 4:56 AM, Herbert J. Bernstein via comcifs wrote:
> > > Dear Colleagues,
> > >
> > > James is right about the need for change, and I support his
> suggestions. In
> > > addition, I would suggest taking a look at the RFC process as
> described in
> > >
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Request_for_Comments <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Request_for_Comments>
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Request_for_Comments <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Request_for_Comments>>
> > >
> > > which has been very successful in achieving some remarkable
> results over many
> > > decades,
> > >
> > > the ISO standardization process
> > >
> > >
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Organization_for_Standardization
> > <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Organization_for_Standardization
> >
> > > <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Organization_for_Standardization
> > <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Organization_for_Standardization
> >>
> > >
> > > which has also produced many important results, but also some
> serious mistakes,
> > > and the IEEE Standards Association process
> > >
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_Standards_Association <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_Standards_Association>
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_Standards_Association <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_Standards_Association>>
> > >
> > > which fits somewhere between the two others in success of its
> efforts.
> > >
> > > I have a friend who insists that it is a terrible mistake for
> an organization to become
> > > "process driven", and he is, of course, right. What should driv> our activities should
> > > be the effectiveness of the results we achieve, but well defined> strong processes
> > > used as a tool, not as an end in themselves, can be very helpful
> in achieving those
> > > results.
> > >
> > > I look forward to this discussion.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Herbert
> > >
> > > On Fri, Aug 13, 2021 at 1:51 AM James H via comcifs <
> comcifs at iucr.org <mailto:comcifs at iucr.org> <mailto:comcifs at iucr.org
> > <mailto:comcifs at iucr.org>>> wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear COMCIFS members,
> > >
> > > I believe it is time to assess how we do things on COMCIFS,
> and to take some incremental steps towards streamlining our
> > > activities and broadening our base of dictionary
> contributors. To that end I've created a discussion document which you
> > can read
> > > at
> https://github.com/COMCIFS/comcifs.github.io/blob/master/draft/CIF_processes_discussion.md
> > <
> https://github.com/COMCIFS/comcifs.github.io/blob/master/draft/CIF_processes_discussion.md
> >
> > > <
> https://github.com/COMCIFS/comcifs.github.io/blob/master/draft/CIF_processes_discussion.md
> > <
> https://github.com/COMCIFS/comcifs.github.io/blob/master/draft/CIF_processes_discussion.md>>.
> That document is also appended to
> > > this email.
> > >
> > > Please discuss. In the absence of substantial objections, I
> will take this as broad agreement with the document and
> > proceed on
> > > that basis.
> > >
> > > all the best,
> > > James.
> > >
> ==========================================================================
> > >
> > > # Revitalising COMCIFS: Discussion
> > >
> > > DRAFT 2021-08-13
> > >
> > > See "Next Step" at the end for suggested next actions.
> > >
> > > # Introduction
> > >
> > > After a decade as COMCIFS chair I have (finally, some might
> say)
> > > perceived a couple of related issues:
> > >
> > > 1. Most of the work is falling on a few people, which is
> unsustainable
> > > and leads to too narrow a focus
> > >
> > > 2. Dictionary development is not keeping pace with the science
> > >
> > > This discussion document contains some ideas for a way
> forward which
> > > I'd like you all to consider and to bring your combined
> experience of
> > > committees and scientists on committees to bear.
> > >
> > > # Current situation
> > >
> > > Formally, COMCIFS is a subcommittee of the IUCr executive.
> While we
> > > are relatively minor compared to the commissions, as a resul> we have
> > > a great deal of flexibility in how we organise ourselves.
> > >
> > > COMCIFS currently operates in a relatively informal fashion.
> Discussions
> > > of policy are held on the official COMCIFS mailing list.
> Discussions
> > > relating to the Core dictionary are held on the core-DMG
> mailing list.
> > > Technical issues, including DDLm development, are discussed
> either on
> > > the DDLm mailing list or within the Github repositories.
> > >
> > > # Suggestions for improvement
> > >
> > > ## Suggestion 1: Document procedures and processes.
> > >
> > > The informal way of doing things is essentially exclusionary
> to all
> > > those "not in the club". In contrast, easy-to-find and clear
> > > procedures allow new contributors to feel confident that the> are
> > > approaching a task correctly and thus lower the barriers to
> > > contribution.
> > >
> > > Additionally, agreed and transparent procedures reduce the
> possibility
> > > of mistakes or misunderstandings. I realise that I might be
> sounding
> > > (perhaps frighteningly) bureaucratic to some of you, but my
> plan would
> > > be to document no more than necessary to achieve the above
> goals. It
> > > is likely that most procedures would be a single page, if
> that, and as
> > > you will see below I'm suggesting that the quantity of
> procedures
> > > depends very much on the interest of COMCIFS in having them.
> > >
> > > ## Suggestion 2: Technical Advisory Committee
> > >
> > > This would be the group currently called "ddlm-group" which
> consults
> > > on any changes to the foundational standards (DDLm and dREL)..
> This
> > > group would become responsible for the detail of implementin> > > procedures using Github, the IUCr website and so on.
> > >
> > > The idea of this group is to remove the (mostly perceived)
> need for
> > > COMCIFS members to be across the technical detail. Instead
> technical
> > > questions/issues can be delegated to the TAC. Membership
> models for
> > > the TAC can be discussed, there are many to choose from in
> the open
> > > source world, e.g. Python.
> > >
> > > ## Suggestion 3: Formally involve the relevant IUCr
> commissions
> > >
> > > IUCr commissions have no formal relationship to dictionaries
> that
> > > cover their topics. However, it makes no sense that, for
> example, the
> > > powder diffraction commission has no expected input or
> responsibility
> > > for the powder dictionary.
> > >
> > > The IUCr executive have recently encouraged us to formalise
> links with
> > > commissions. This is important, as the IUCr executive are th> ones who
> > > have the ability to hold commissions accountable for their
> area of
> > > expertise in the dictionaries.
> > >
> > > ## Suggestion 4: Lower barriers to participation
> > >
> > > All interested parties should be able to join both COMCIFS
> and any
> > > dictionary management lists that fall under our purview
> > > automatically. If unproductive discussion due to too many
> voices
> > > becomes a problem then we can revisit this.
> > >
> > > ## Suggestion 5: Better information dissemination
> > >
> > > An informal newsletter covering recent developments helps al> parts
> > > of the community understand what is going on without having
> to visit
> > > the various places in which things are happening.
> > >
> > > # First steps
> > >
> > > Creating and documenting processes takes time and energy.
> However,
> > > before involving the commissions these processes need to be
> set up. So
> > > process number 1 is the process for producing documents (sor> of like
> > > ddl.dic is the dictionary for dictionaries). I propose the
> following
> > > outline for this "procedure number 1".
> > >
> > > ## Creating procedures: procedure number 1
> > >
> > > The type of work that COMCIFS does is similar to the W3C and
> other
> > > standards bodies. I suggest that the International Virtual
> Observatory
> > > Alliance documentation standards are a good reference point
> > > (
> https://www.ivoa.net/documents/DocStd/20170517/REC-DocStd-2.0-20170517.pd> > <
> https://www.ivoa.net/documents/DocStd/20170517/REC-DocStd-2.0-20170517.pd> >
> > > <
> https://www.ivoa.net/documents/DocStd/20170517/REC-DocStd-2.0-20170517.pd> > <
> https://www.ivoa.net/documents/DocStd/20170517/REC-DocStd-2.0-20170517.pd> >>).
> > > These are themselves based on the W3C documentation
> standards. Given
> > > that our goals are considerably more modest than those
> sprawling
> > > organisations, we can aim for considerable simplification.
> > >
> > > The following three steps and documents should be tracked on a
> > > website: either in the IUCr CIF area, or Github repository,
> or both.
> > >
> > > ### Step 1: Proposal
> > >
> > > A short statement outlining the nature, scope and objectives
> of the
> > > procedure is submitted to the COMCIFS mailing list, either
> directly or
> > > via the COMCIFS secretary or chair. A draft document may be
> provided
> > > but is not necessary.
> > >
> > > ### Step 2: Working group
> > >
> > > If the procedure is seen as worthwhile by COMCIFS, a working
> group is
> > > formed and tasked to produce a Working Draft.
> > >
> > > ### Step 3: Approved document
> > >
> > > The Working draft is presented to COMCIFS for feedback and
> approval.
> > > Once approved, the working draft becomes an approved document.
> > >
> > > # Other required procedures
> > >
> > > After agreeing on something like the above process, I sugges> we need
> > > to deal with the following as well:
> > >
> > > - Procedure for COMCIFS approval
> > > - Procedure for adding a dictionary definition
> > > - Procedure for creating a new dictionary
> > >
> > > # Next step
> > >
> > > The "Creating a procedure" proposal is discussed by COMCIFS
> as per
> > > Step 1 above. If COMCIFS agrees, a working group is formed t> document
> > > the process for creating new procedures, as per Step 2 above..
> > > --
> > > T +61 (02) 9717 9907
> > > F +61 (02) 9717 3145
> > > M +61 (04) 0249 4148
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > comcifs mailing list
> > > comcifs at iucr.org <mailto:comcifs at iucr.org> <mailto:
> comcifs at iucr.org <mailto:comcifs at iucr.org>>
> > > http://mailman.iucr.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/comcifs <
> http://mailman.iucr.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/comcifs>
> > <http://mailman.iucr.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/comcifs <
> http://mailman.iucr.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/comcifs>>
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > comcifs mailing list
> > > comcifs at iucr.org <mailto:comcifs at iucr.org>
> > > http://mailman.iucr.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/comcifs <
> http://mailman.iucr.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/comcifs>
> > >
> >
> > --
> > John Westbrook
> > RCSB, Protein Data Bank
> > Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey
> > Institute for Quantitative Biomedicine at Rutgers
> > 174 Frelinghuysen Rd
> > Piscataway, NJ 08854-8087
> > e-mail: john.westbrook at rcsb.org <mailto:john.westbrook at rcsb.org>
> > Ph: (848) 445-4290 Fax: (732) 445-4320
> >
> --
> John Westbrook
> RCSB, Protein Data Bank
> Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey
> Institute for Quantitative Biomedicine at Rutgers
> 174 Frelinghuysen Rd
> Piscataway, NJ 08854-8087
> e-mail: john.westbrook at rcsb.org
> Ph: (848) 445-4290 Fax: (732) 445-4320
--
T +61 (02) 9717 9907
F +61 (02) 9717 3145
M +61 (04) 0249 4148
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